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Helping Hackers - The Dance of Golf    Back to Topics  Page: 1 of 10     
From: curran90 (1 of 98)   10/31/2009 5:55:19 PM
To:
Last week I had a lady beginner. I teach beginners in an excellerated fashion. They don't have the time to work on the grip for one lesson, the set up for another and then two or three session to learn a golf swing. They come to me when they want to learn how to play respectable golf and they want or need to do it now not six or eight weeks from now.

This lady did great with putting, chipping and half swing chip shots but when it came time for the full swing she could swing an knock a tee out of the ground but when I put a ball on the tee she couldn't find either the tee or the ball with her pitching wedge. This of course is a mental thing as there is physical reason if the golfer can knock a tee out of the ground when no ball is present and can't locate the same tee in the same location when a ball is present. If the problem isn't physical then it must be mental. No matter what I tried I couldn't get her mind off the ball and the more she tried to hit at the ball rather than just swinging the club and letting the ball get in the way of the swing.

She got frustrated and I suggested we take a break and pick it up again next week. When she came back today I had her do the Dance of Golf as done in the following video.

She had absolutely no problem not only hitting the ball with the wedge but was able to work her way through the irons and woods all the way to the driver. At the end of the session she was very proud of her accomplishments and when I ask her what made the difference she said without even thinking about the question. She said it was the dance that made the difference.

I have never heard of this guy before but since I borrowed his method I thought the least I could do for him is to share his video with the DB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4qw0z1qeME

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From: guru4u (2 of 98)   10/31/2009 6:26:23 PM
To: curran90 In response to Post 1
Harry Obitz and Dick Farley did this drill in ... "Six Days to Better Golf" 50 years ago ... long before video and youtube.

Was your client as young, fit and athletic as the woman in the video? You're pretty quick to call this a mental problem. Could fatigue or fear of failure have had anything to do with the problem? Do you think getting a little practice between lessons ... without any coaching might have been a factor in the improvement ... kinda like a "gotcha moment"? Do you think your instruction might have had time to soak in and be processed? You say you do not have not time for a beginner so you excellerate you teaching. What fundamentals were not good enough for your excellerated method? Does this form of excelleration have something to do with excellence? Could overload and jumping too far from the small swings to much harder movements have been a factor? Are you sure bigger movements are just simple extensions of smaller movements? Are you up to speed on "cognitive interference"? Would a shaping or reverse shaping have helped ... that's pretty much what the "dance" accomplishes.

This "dance" is nothing more than a DRILL. Something you criticized in my Charles Barkley posts a few months ago. Perhaps if you had a better understanding of the physiological and psychological principles of learning using drills, things might have gone better in the first lesson. Are you just now using drills after all those years of experience you have?

Sounds like your client may have left the lesson tee pretty frustrated. You may be lucky she came back for another dose. Would this be normal teaching performance or special? Are you sure you know enough to be charging money for golf lessons or might you be stuck in a golf time warp?
Edited 10/31/2009 6:29:00 PM by guru4u

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From: sjcrusher (3 of 98)   10/31/2009 7:33:59 PM
To: curran90 In response to Post 1
It is a good drill. I saw it on Youtube last year posted by Shawn Clement. I am sure it has been around a while. It doesn't matter who invented it.

Nice story of helping a beginner get over the hit impulse.

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From: guru4u (4 of 98)   10/31/2009 8:17:54 PM
To: sjcrusher In response to Post 3
This Curran guy likes to accuse others of stealing ideas. Isn't it appropriate for him to acknowledge the long standing use of this drill and who may have preceeded the Johnny Come Lately seen in the video?

Did this guy really help his client? Could he have done a better job of helping his client if he were more technically prepared to teach. Regarding his long experience as a teacher, if you stand in the same place and never move, you will be in the same place regardless of how long you stood there.

I don't mean to get crossways with you, but his post never mentioned anything about a hit impulse. His client couldn't swing the club and hit the ball. That isn't a hit impulse. It is a total lack of skill. If you incorrectly diagnose the problem you will probably apply the wrong cure.

My point is simple, this guy is held in esteem by many on the DB, but he seems to lack a bunch of technical competence. Everything I have read indicates he learned to teach "by the seat of his pants". He doesn't mind taking pot shots at well reasoned and scientifically correct posts. It seems that what's good for my goose must surely be good for that old gander.
Edited 10/31/2009 8:19:00 PM by guru4u

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From: sjcrusher (5 of 98)   10/31/2009 8:42:28 PM
To: guru4u In response to Post 4
Guru, first of all, I have to say that I have read a lot of your posts, and from what I can tell, you seem to enjoy getting crossways with just about everyone.

With regard to your questions to me, I believe based on Curran's post, that he DID help his client. According to him (rephrased in my words as I understand his post), the lady could knock a tee out of the ground, but couldn't make the same swing with a golf ball present. To me, this is the same thing as a hit impulse, whether or not he used those words. In fact, he did say "she tried to hit at the ball rather than just swinging the club and letting the ball get in the way of the swing".

Why should anyone have to find out and identify the original drill inventor just to reference a video?? So, no, I don't think he was obligated to acknowlege the long standing use of the drill. He didn't even claim it was his.

Lastly, please don't try to drag me into your flame wars. I have no interest in that. I have interest in posts that share golf ideas, experience, or otherwise good, positive discussions.

There seem to be very few of these to participate in lately.
Edited 10/31/2009 8:43:00 PM by sjcrusher

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From: guru4u (6 of 98)   10/31/2009 8:58:57 PM
To: sjcrusher In response to Post 5
First, I DO NOT enjoy the spitting contests, but I enjoy being personally attacked even less. You will just have to trust me ... I'm a mellow fellow.

Charles Barkley has a hit impulse ... where you stop and start or where you use the hands to make an awkward jerk.

I do not believe this guy was nearly as productive as you give him credit for being. It's my guess he confused the lady with too much info, skipped necessary things and ask her to do to much in one session ... typical of a semi-skilled teacher. I have witnessed this same scenario dozens of times. It's much more common than you think.

This same guy rebuked the same general drill scenario in another thread. Now, he thinks it's a good idea. Sounds kinda flighty to me. I other threads/posts he has rebuked me for not quoting the original source.

I thought I was sending my reply to ALL the readers on this thread. If I screwed it up by not double checking the to box, my apologies. I absolutely do not want you dragged into this problem.

But, for the record, I am the defendant. Curran was given the opportunity to get off my butt and he chose to continue the attacks. Now I intend to slice and dice everything he posts until he crys uncle. Attack my ideas and concepts with facts and reason, but don't start a spitting contest unless you want to be spit on in return.

If you have truly read my posts in various threads, then you should be scratching your head and having vision of golf sugarplums dancing inside.

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From: curran90 (7 of 98)   10/31/2009 8:59:48 PM
To: sjcrusher In response to Post 3
When I was a child I loved to tell and listen to jokes. At that time they were Jack Benny, Hennie Youngman and of course Bob Hope. The all say about the other that they never heard a joke that they couldn't steal. Later in life I learned if you modeled successful people you didn't need to make all the mistakes they made. Almost every think I do in golf I have borrowed from someone smarter than me. The short game I teach is right out of David Pelz short game school because that is where I learned the short game before I became an instructor.
I teach golfers how to square the club face with their hands because I learned this from a local PGA instructor who has been voted the Southwest Ohio PGA teacher of the year a number of times.
I thought I was the first instructors to not try to change a golfers swing but simply work with them to hit the ball solidly with the swing they already had. However I have since learned that the first Instant Golf Instructor, altho he wasn't called that was Sam Snead. Snead worked at Greenbrier and the guest would come to him for a lesson. Snead only got one shot at helping them play better because in a day or two they would be on their way home and thus he never had a chance to give them a follow up lesson. He said he quickly learned that there wasn't much he could do with their golf swing in that short period of time. Rather than trying to change their swing he would simply try to get them to get their right hand out of the stroke. He would have them pull down with their left hand and arm and just let the right hand ride on the club. He claimed once he started doing this he could walk into the dinning room in the evening and he would see the students he had in the morning all with big smiles on their faces. The story was usually the same. I shot the best round of my life today, or my wife didn't hit one worm burner today.

Because I have a bum left leg I can no longer make a decent golf swing where I transfer my weight from the back foot to the front one. Youtube videos allow me the opportunity to send my students to these videos so they can see what needs to be done even if their instructor can no longer show them.

Unlike a golf instructor on this DB I don't claim to know it all and don't pretend to; however, like Henry Ford once said, I may not know the answer but I guarantee you I can find it within a few hours.

Finally learning to get over the "hitting impulse" is one of the major hurdles a beginner and hackers face. The club should be swung and the ball should just get in the way of the swing. If they do this centrifugal force will time the swing for them. If they try to time the swing by hitting at the ball they will destroy the centrifugal force and if their timing isn't spot on, and what hacker or beginner has perfect timing, they have little or no change of making solid contract with the ball.


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From: guru4u (8 of 98)   10/31/2009 9:25:21 PM
To: In response to Post 7
I knew Curran's stuff was old and tired, but I didn't think it was this bad. He should have saved this for the confessional. I can hear a bunch of geezers at the home agreeing with his new "methods" ... in between their naps.

My former protege who is now a highly repected teacher and director of golf of a major muni (80K+ rounds) has a cute way of handling people who want help but don't want to change their swing. He asks "what part of wrong do you want to keep".

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From: sjcrusher (9 of 98)   10/31/2009 9:32:36 PM
To: guru4u In response to Post 6
Take it for what it is worth, but I think you have some good ideas and interesting theories, but you tend to be too verbose. I probably haven't read all of the history, but some people have suggested that you could be more effective if you could keep it simpler. I tend to agree. Maybe you are doing what you call "trying to do too much in one session". And maybe you could learn to take a little criticism without feeling attacked??

After reading many of your recent posts, the only thing I am scratching my head about is why can't you exercise better restraint at attacking, name calling, and negative comments.

Golfers are supposed to be all about ettiquite and integrity, but 80% of all posts on this board (and 90% of your posts) are nothing but rude, offensive childish rants. I am just guessing at the percentages in case you want to take me to task on those figures.

As far as you being a mellow fellow, I will have to take your word for it, because what I have seen on the board here is quite different.

Just my opinions.

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From: sjcrusher (10 of 98)   10/31/2009 9:40:21 PM
To: curran90 In response to Post 7
I agree. Nothing wrong with recycling old and time-tested methods. As an instructor, your job is to apply whatever tools and methods will get results. Maybe if you were a researcher, you would care more about original ideas. Most of what is useful has already been used, so just re-use it, maybe in a slightly original way.

I would add that even some better players fight a hit impulse. With enough practice, this can work to a degree, but it is not as aesthetically pleasing as a nice rhythmical swing.

Keep helping your students as simply as possible.

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